Coryphella browni

Jon Chamberlain I was thinking this was Coryphella browni, but someone suggested it might be Facellina bostoniensis due to the long tentacles and more upright rhinophores. Any thoughts?

Jon Chamberlain Found at 8m at Salthouse, Norfolk in Sept (chalk reef).

Ian Smith typical F. bostoniensis. Lamellate rhinophores not on C. browni

Rob Spray There are a few key features I think help spot a Facelina straightaway 1) pink 'glow' of the mouth within the head, 2) BIG oral processes 3) long, luxurious cerata :-) Then you just ID which species...

Becky Hitchin luxurious ... glow ... sounds like a female nudi!]

Rob Spray Our slugs are quite hedonistic out here in the east :-)

Shôn Roberts Coryphella browni Photo taken on the Menai Straits Nature Trail

Terry Griffiths

Terry Griffiths C. lineata and F.browni

Christian Skauge Why is it a F. browni? What tells it apart from other F's?

Terry Griffiths Ahh it could be Coryphella browni will look at other photo's

Bernard Picton Terry, I use Coryphella, most people use Flabellina, but same species. Christian, size, detail of the white pigment (radula if you take it out and compare..). Compare this one with Erling's a couple of days ago.

Christian Skauge Yeah, I meant "why browni" not "why flabellina", sorry for confusing you Terry... I saw Erling's the other day and I was confused with that one as well - I don't think F. browni has been recorded officially in Norway and I was automatically thinking F. pellucida or similar. Hmm, must read ALL books about this species- again ;-)

Tony Gilbert To me this looks like a Coryphella browni, the cerata tips have white rings just below them (and not covering the whole tip), and no blue tinges, so didn't think it was F. bostoniensis. Animal was 1.5cm long if that. As you can see it appears to munching away quite happily at this hydroid. I think this one is Aglaophenia pluma, which I think Doto koenneckeri is specific to, and was found in the strong tidal streams of the Menai Straits. This food source for C. browni isn't its primary, so I thought it was interesting to see the image.

Torjus Haukvik To me, the rhinophores doesn't look like they're belonging ta a Flabellina. I also have the understanding that Facelina auriculata is supposed to have the blue tinges, not F. bostoniensis. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.. I would say Facelina bostoniensis..

Tony Gilbert Thanks Torjus. As I understand it, both F. bostoniensis and F. auriculata have blue tinges/irridescence, but F. bostoniensis has them to a lesser degree. I've images of both Facelinas and we see mostly F. auriculata in Menai Straits but also C. brownii, both are usually on Tubularias. The F. bostoniensis I've mostly seen are quite large anyway, so that doesn't help. I wondered whether F. bostiensis has white below the cerata tips, or whole of the cerata tip? I.e. Are the white just below the cerata tips diagnostic of a C. browni? Also F. bostoniensis is mostly found on Tubularia, so whether the nudi is C. or F. they are not usually on the hydroid I photographed with the nudi.

Torjus Haukvik You had me pull out some litterature now. My key uses the lamellaes as a character to separate between Facelina and Flabellina, and the blue irridescence to distinguish Facelina bostoniensis from F. auriculata. Although the description of F. bostoniensis states that it can display a blue irridescence in rar occations, the description of F. auriculata states that this allway has blue irridescence. But, my book is quite old, so I'm not going to say anything for certain. About the coloration on the cerata tips in the Flabellina genus, I'm not your guy..! ;)

Tony Gilbert You've solved the nudi ID anyway, thanks! I also had another look at both, and checked a second picture I took. This first picture does show some red around the mouth area, and very long oral tentacles. The second picture, which I didn't post, is a head shot and clearly shows white pigment on the head between the rhinophores. So, I think you were right that it is F. bostoniensis, which is great, cos its my first one in the Straits (I think). So, the cerata tip colouration below the tips isn't diagnostic of C. browni. And, this nudi (F. bostoniensis) is not eating Tubularia or Clava.

Brendan Oonk F.bostoniensis indeed. Although it prefers Tubularia as it's food. It is know to eat all kinds of hydroids and even other nudibranchs

Tony Gilbert Thanks all.

Shôn Roberts Coryphella Browni Photo taken in the Menai Straits, Anglesey North Wales.

Jim Anderson It looks more like Flabellina verrucosa to me.

Shôn Roberts It could be. Someone else at Seasearch has said the same. Look very similar though.

Shôn Roberts A few photos I took in the Straits near the cables on Thursday evening. Coryphella Browni ?

Liz Morris looks like it to me, but i dont have my nudi book with me... ill have a check tomorrow. think it can be confused with coryphella verrucosa? do you know that most of the info in the nudi book is shown on the encyclopedia of marine life of britain and ireland?

Shôn Roberts Thanks for that Liz.

Neil Watson This nudi looks like it is feeding on the hydriods that were on the wreck of the landing craft out of Selsey. It is at a depth of about 10m. It was about 1cm long. Any ideas about what type it is?

Mary Restell Coryphella verrucosa

Jon Chamberlain Coryphella browni might be more likely: http://www.habitas.org.uk/marinelife/species.asp?item=W14500

Mary Restell yep - think you're right Jon - broader rings on the cerata tips

Allison Gleadhill Scilly isles 3 weeks ago, 12'C. Coryphella or Fabellina? or something else!

Bernard Picton I'd call it Coryphella browni, but taxonomists who like large genera would call it Flabellina browni...

Jørn Ari Snoghøj - Lillebælt OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA Copyright: Jorn Ari

Jim Anderson I would say it is not - it looks more like Flabellina browni to me

Jørn Ari But what about the red oesophagus, situated just behind the rhinophores, is clearly visible?

Robert Eriksson Look at the length of the oral tentacles,, they are about the same as the rhinohores=flabellina if much longer then Facelina! Rings and colour are not very stable traits for species discrimination!

Robert Eriksson .. blooper.. Rings on the Rhinophores (lamellae) are a stable trait though. Not sure what you mean mean rings Jorn? Coloured rings of e.g. White pigmentstions are not stable for species deduction in any species of the Flabellina or Facelina (personlopinion).

Robert Eriksson ... Mind that the oral tentacle and rhinophores are retractible and you need to Watch the animal for some time to be able to deduce it's "normal" relaxed state. I agree that it is a Flabellina, but never saw brownii as a good species - any gene-studies done on brownii?

Jørn Ari I ment lamellae

Bernard Picton Sorry, but I completely disagree with you Robert Eriksson, details of coloration are very good characters, but you have to weight them by how big and mature each individual animal is. There is considerable evidence that CO1 barcode sequences are identical in closely related species of marine invertebrates, so the DNA evidence is partly dependent on which bit of DNA you sequence. There is a lot of observing and collecting to be done yet before we have all the answers...

Lucas CerCur I agree with you Bernard Picton

Bernard Picton Oh, and I should say I've seen hundreds of Coryphella browni in the field, kept them in containers with Coryphella lineata which they were sharing their Tubularia indivisa with, watched them considering whether to mate with a C. lineata and deciding not to....

Lucas CerCur I have seen photos of Trapania lineata mating with supposed T. fusca!!!!! from southern Spain.

Bernard Picton ;-) so then we have to determine whether the offspring were fertile. Horse + Donkey = Ass.

Bernard Picton So absence of mating is evidence of separate species, if mating is possible by the species normally sharing a habitat.

Bernard Picton But cross-species mating occurs, and sometimes hybrids are even fertile. It is thought from DNA evidence that the "species" Alcyonium hibernicum is a hybrid, yet it occurs in areas where neither parent is present.

Lucas CerCur Of course.

Lucas CerCur As I told to my students, Biology is no Maths

Lucas CerCur Fortunately....

Robert Eriksson Don't be sorry, for disagreeing, Bernard Picton, these discussions are advancing our knowledge! I would like to expain myself briefly about the colouration issue. In Flabellina, the colouration of the rhinophores and the cerata is very variable, at least when looking at Nordic specimens. Some specimens have rings, some have a partial ring, some have only spots of pigment. I am only claiming these traits in adult specimens. Colouration might be stable in other species. Of course variability of genes depends on what part of the DNA you are sequencing, as you stated. Thats why you tend to use noncoding or at least more variable genes (with a "faster evolution") for deducing closely related species. I am truly confident in that we never will have all the answers...

Erling Svensen Could this be Flabellina browni? Quite strange one, I think.....

Terry Griffiths that's one of the variations we have here Erling

Tony Gilbert Yes, it looks vry C. browni Erling, although its digestive gland is quite prominent.

Erling Svensen Thanks both of you :-)

Rob Maller Thought it was Flabellina gracilis .....

Marco Faasse I think Rob Maller is right

Erling Svensen I thought it was too big for gracilis, 3 cm long aprox?

Marco Faasse That's very long for F. gacilis indeed. Other characters match with this species best.

Brendan Oonk Could it be F verrucosa?

Marco Faasse In F. verrucosa I've seen the rhinofores were slightly wrinkled and not pure white. The body was white, not so translucent. The cerata were plumper, with the white closer to the top, and they were held more closely together.

Brendan Oonk I gues this means "no" :)

Tony Gilbert F. verrucosa has thinner white tips on the cerata. Gracilis - I think the cerata are less "smooth" than the browni. Also, F. gracilis max length is half the size of this specimen. Additionally, I don't know which food you found it on/near, but the food sources are different. I still think c. browni at present, but Bernard Picton is your man.

Bernard Picton Yes, I think this is certainly Coryphella browni (Flabellina browni). Now you need to find C. borealis - it should be there somewhere. Radula is different but there are no photos of borealis as far as I know.

Marco Faasse Tony Gilbert mentioned smooth cerata contents for F. browni, the white cerata rings seem to go closer to the tips and the anterior margin of the foot seems to have more white. Are there any other features to distinguish this kind of specimens from F. gracilis, apart from size? They are likely to be identified as F. gracilis, when they arrive where F. browni did not occur (e.g. Netherlands).

Marco Faasse The main difference with this specimen of presumed F. gracilis seems to be broader white rings:

Marco Faasse http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=356546331089883&set=a.255646997846484.59735.100002035584345&type=3&theater

Rob Maller But still hard to notice the difference to be honost....

Terry Griffiths A new nudibranch for my collection but no ID done the books and the web ,it was about 5mm in size sorry not a great photo though

Andy Rapson Possibly Coryphella browni?

Terry Griffiths Thanks Andy but white lines on the rhinophores and oral tentacles made me question that one and due to the reason i spotted this one the bright yellow colour.

Bernard Picton My comment fell off too? I agree Dawn, you can see the white lines on the oral tentacles. I'll be calling them Flabellina lineata in line with current world opinion, but expect that some Coryphella will reappear when the Family Flabellinidae gets revised with DNA phylogeny.

Neil Garrick-Maidment FacebookTerry you’ve let me down, there was me thinking you were the expert on all nudibranchs !!, Its very beautiful isn’t it. Best wishes Neil Neil Garrick-Maidment FBNA Executive Director The Seahorse Trust (registered charity no. 1086027) Escot Park Ottery St Mary Nr Honiton Devon EX11 1LU Tel: 01404 822373 SKYPE-seahorses12 www.theseahorsetrust.org www.britishseahorsesurvey.org www.seahorses.tv http://www.facebook.com/reqs.php#!/group.php?gid=106564446031865&ref=ts registered charity 1086027 WORKING IN PARTNERSHIP WITH NATURE Raise money for THE SEAHORSE TRUST with VIRGIN GIVING at http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/giving/ E-BAY at http://donations.ebay.co.uk/charity/charity.jsp?NP_ID=43663 EVERYCLICK.COM at http://www.everyclick.com/theseahorsetrust

Neil Garrick-Maidment FacebookForgot to say where did you photograph it?? Best wishes Neil Neil Garrick-Maidment FBNA Executive Director The Seahorse Trust (registered charity no. 1086027) Escot Park Ottery St Mary Nr Honiton Devon EX11 1LU Tel: 01404 822373 SKYPE-seahorses12 www.theseahorsetrust.org www.britishseahorsesurvey.org www.seahorses.tv http://www.facebook.com/reqs.php#!/group.php?gid=106564446031865&ref=ts registered charity 1086027 WORKING IN PARTNERSHIP WITH NATURE Raise money for THE SEAHORSE TRUST with VIRGIN GIVING at http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/giving/ E-BAY at http://donations.ebay.co.uk/charity/charity.jsp?NP_ID=43663 EVERYCLICK.COM at http://www.everyclick.com/theseahorsetrust

Terry Griffiths Hi Neil this one done at Eastern kings feel free to look on the new website but still work in progress.. www.tgup.co.uk

Andy Horton Useful link: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/458573/phylogeny

Shôn Roberts

Shôn Roberts Hi All. One of the photos has a couple of Nudibranch's in it. Anybody know what they are. They look a little like Coryphella Browni as in the seasearch book but I am not sure. Any helpers?

Liz Morris Lovely pics Shon, nice to see what's out my window,just a shame I've not managed to get in myself yet this year!! Hope my comments help!

Shôn Roberts Thank you Liz.

Becky Hitchin Does anyone know why Ross coral is called Ross coral? Who / what / where was Ross?

Chris Whitehead I wonder if it was originally 'Rose Coral'? The colonies do look a lot like rose flower heads. Ross coral isn't actually a coral of course. it's a colony of bryozoans. http://tinyurl.com/d396peg

Marco Faasse In French it's "rose de mer", so it's not so strange to think of "Rose Coral" as the original name. Names sometimes show strange behaviour in the course of time.

Becky Hitchin Oh interesting, Marco! That would make sense as nowhere seems to ever mention any connection to a Ross. The colonies could, I suppose, resemble rather wrinkly roses!

Marco Faasse Oh, as an afterthought: this made me think of the Ross worm Sabellaria spinulosa:http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/marine/protectandmanage/mpa/mcz/features/habitats/rosswormreefs.aspx (couldn't access MarLIN now). Again: what/who/where is/was Ross? Here a have no explanation at all ...

Becky Hitchin I know ... that's strange too

David Kipling June RP Ross perhaps? http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Bryozoa.html?id=Jl0WAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

George Brown It used to be called Rose coral (petals, etc) but was mispelt in a book (Collins I think) that, unfortunately, has stuck. A few species have suffered in that way.

Andy Horton http://www.facebook.com/groups/WordOrigins/

Andy Horton Plumose = feathery (from memory). In old books there was a transcription error that may have been repeated in a later book.

David Kipling I'm struggling with my new OS have quite vicious autocorrect, which is making tagging FB pics with latin names fun at times. Elegans >> elegant and so on.

George Brown Dawn, exactly. Which is why I always try and use the scientific name. It can also tell so much about the creature you are looking at. And this coming from someone who proudly achieved 7% in a latin exam in school!

David Kipling Ciona intestinalis ... looks like an intestine, tick. Coryphella browni is more redi than browni though ...

George Brown Yes, it's named after Greg Brown, one of a small group of folk that brought the world of nudibranchs to the attention of us mere divers. Greg blended art with science in British Opisthobranch Molluscs published in 1976.

David Kipling Yes, I know ;) The book you mention - is that the same as the 2-vol 'biology of opisthobranch molluscs' I have sitting here? (ie the Ray Soc volumes). That's Thompson and Brown. Wouldn't want to think I'm missing a uk nudi volume somewhere!

George Brown No. This is Synopsis of the British Fauna No.8, British Opisthobranch Molluscs, Thompson and Brown, 1976, for The Linnean Society of London, ISBN: 0-12-689350-0. The drawings are black and white but a friend of mine has coloured in the plates on her copy. Beautiful. I last dived with Greg some time in the 70's. On a Nudibranch expedition to Kerrera, by Oban. With Keith Hiscock!

Becky Hitchin Now I want to hunt out a book showing Pentapora as Rose Coral. I got out my 1958 Collins, but no mention of it in there

Becky Hitchin It is? I blame Dawn for this new piece of information!

Douglas Herdson I am glad to see people still using the familiar "Ross Coral". I had been told we now had to used "Potato Crisp Bryozoan".

David Kipling Pringle bryozoan fits though, and is a better match to the shape ;)

Becky Hitchin I don't know what strange Pringles you eat! :P

David Kipling Well they have that curve to them that remind me of Pentapora's curves. MCS should start to do "product placement" in its field guides and earn a few extra £££!

Becky Hitchin Haven't they done enough of that this weekend?!

David Kipling Dawn ... it's Pentapora fascialis in Hayward and Ryland (1995). When did the official change from P. foliacea take place?