Polycarpa pomaria

Erling Svensen Could this be Polycarpa pomaria?

Charlotte Bolton Same Torquay reef - Polycarpa pomaria? Sorry, not a great view down the siphons...

David Kipling Big thing? Overall colour would suggest that, and if massive then for sure.

Charlotte Bolton 3-5cm (she guesses, having not made any notes at the time), based on the context in the uncropped pic. Definitely in the vicinity of the 5cmH by 3cmW given on Habitas...

David Kipling Sounds right - pomaria is one of the unusually big leathery ones (ignore styela).

Charlotte Bolton Cheerses. More grist to the Devon Seasearch mill :-)

Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat Hi, P. pomaria has coloured siphons without lobes. I think it is some molgula

David Kipling Do you think those are lobes, as opposed to silt or crud?

Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat Hi David, The size of the lobes of this species is quite variable so they can be more or less conspicuous from one specimen to the other. Here is a detail of a siphon with well developped lobes which I think comes from the same Molgula species.

David Kipling Interesting, I see what you mean! My mistake for looking at Charlotte's picture and assuming it was crud! What species do you think yours is? I have the 1969 Monniot book and all that has done is make me record them all as Molgula sp. :)

Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat I think that in Monniot it is Molgula manhattensis, but to say the truth I haven't check yet. But, nowadays, some specialists begin to argue about the presence of this species in Brittany.

Charlotte Bolton It was a fairly silty reef but Wilfried's picture is a pretty good match... I despair of getting the hang of squirts!

Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat Hi, could you please help me again with this other sea squirt. It is 6 to 8 cm tall. Quite sensitive, it quickly closes its siphons when one gets near but opens them rather slowly and it's very contractile. Could this be Polycarpa pomaria? Rade de Brest, Brittany, between 8 and 10 meters deep.

Bernard Picton I think this is Pyura squamulosa. Many of these ascidians are really only described by their internal anatomy, so more photographs will be a useful resource for determining their external characteristics...

Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat Hi Bernard, according to the diagnosis we have, P. squamulosa seems to be smaller and its test more tessellated like the one of P. tessellata ?

Claire Goodwin I guess what is needed is a collection with photographs and dissection programme to match internal anatomy and external appearance up (similar to what we've been doing with sponges). Any volunteers?!

Nick Owen Been thinking along these lines myself for some time. But can anyone advise on where I would find out how to kill/dissect? Need to see it done. Feel like I need a running start and don't want to kill things just to make a big mess and prove nothing!

David Kipling First thing is accessing SW-buffered formalin - can you get hold of that Nick, after your comments about getting AR EtOH at a private address?

Becky Hitchin It's blooming impossible to get anything more toxic than seawater these days. I have a stash of formalin I was given by someone else, but end up using cheap vodka half the time to preserve things temporarily as decent amounts of IMS is hard enough to get!

Becky Hitchin Could we - thinking on my feet here - organise a weekend at some point later in the year for all people interested in participating in such a thing if Bernard Picton / John Bishop would help by coming along and guiding? I know Bernard wants to get some sort of wikipedia based database started, so maybe we could persuade him over? It would be a good idea I think to get everyone together and work out a Plan ...

David Kipling The thing that concerns me is the fixation handling aspect, and access to lab and training. No point in doing dissection training unless you have a safe environment to deal with the formalin usage. Not insurmountable an issue, but does feed in to who such dissection training would be aimed at.

Becky Hitchin Very good point

Claire Goodwin I agree with David about H+S and formalin. Building on Becky's idea (and Rob's squirt roadshow this summer) what about a Seasearch squirt collection workshop next year? Could book diving and providing had lab space allow time for workup - or build some days in at the end when diving finished (then would only need lab for a bit). If there was suitably tempting diving you might well get Bernard Picton along! I'd need to clear it with Bernard but we might be able to store the samples in our collections and if so could provide chemicals. Would be good to get a small bit of funding to subsidise some costs but not essential. What do people think? Any suggestions of places good for squirts? Can we make it mid to later summer so I'll be back in the water? (also ascidians reproductive by then which is needed for ID of some species). Would need to tempt some squirt anatomy folk along but there are several from the consultancies that are good at this (Ali Bessel etc).

Nick Owen Have lab at home with plans for fume cabinet, but need to see a modern one (thirty years since I saw one at all) and would love to see fixation, dissection, etc demonstrated. Seeing lots of squirts in Dorset, most of which remain "unbekannt". So please count me in on a course! Nick >________________________________

David Kipling Do you have problems getting hold of formalin Nick?

Kirstie Harris Any ideas what this is? It was growing in a boiler hole on the Persier wreck in Plymouth.

Kirstie Harris Thank you :)

Sarah Bowen Sorry it's not Polycarpa pomaria, that one is white and wrinkly with a thin pink line round the ends of the siphons. More likely Pyura tessellata. How big?

Kirstie Harris Mmm, about thumbnail size.

David Kipling This would be the right sort of habitat ... under a rock hanging down in a tidal stream (or, in this case, a hole in a wreck). Can you post a closeup of the stripey siphons please Kirstie?

David Kipling http://www.habitas.org.uk/marinelife/species.asp?item=ZD2420

Kirstie Harris David, I can post a close up tomorrow night.

Becky Hitchin will be interesting to see a close-up!

Nick Owen Difference between Pyura tesselata and P. squamulosa please? Have some samples which may be either. Lumpy bits on the test appear quite discrete and rounded rather than "polygonal tiles" butting up to each other. Orange-brown with brown lumpy bits. On cobbles and upright in moderately current-swept locations though also on undersides of cobbles. Contracted unfortunately - the pp ate though its styrene tube making an odd non-sticky jelly presumed no good for squirts ... (oops)

Sarah Bowen Oooh - Nick, at least you're still alive - are you feeling better? Sorry you missed Strangford.

Sarah Bowen And in answer to your question, we're still not quite sure either....(yet)

Becky Hitchin Have also discovered that slightly wrinkly other Pyura can be quite difficult to tell from P. tesselata

David Kipling Def needs some work this whole Pyura/Polycarpa group. At least with some having stripey siphons we might be able to get some reliable-ish features.

Becky Hitchin Our Portrush trip was one complete mess of Pyura and Polycarpa carpets. Remind me to tell you about it sometime!

Becky Hitchin If you're using menthol, just a flake or two in a bowl of water, sit back and wait for hours. And then some more hours. Then decide they probably aren't that relaxed after all

Nick Owen Agree about the menthol. Tried some on a Pyura from Scotland. To Sarah: Yep, still alive, but not diving yet so earning lots of brownie points coxing for people...

Nick Owen Pyuras I've seen so far seem very shy, especially the ones under boulders. By the time you turn them up, they've pulled their siphons in and seem reluctant to start feeding again. Hours of fun.....

Kirstie Harris Ok, here it is zoomed in a bit.

David Kipling Those siphons have the colour of what we tend to record as Pyura microcosmos, just to make life more complex. We normally don't see the body (you're is usefully upside down so no silt has settled) so can't tell you if the red colour is correct. To really sort these out we need more ground-truthing of the photographic in situ appearance (ie take photo then a body, and ID by internal anatomy).

Kirstie Harris If I get back onto the Persier I'll get some more photos.

James Lynott Lots of squirts to be found in Loch Long last night. This photo was taken at about 20m and contains a number of different species. I hope I am right with the IDs of Ascidia virginea, Ascidia mentula, Corella parallelogramma, Ciona intestinalis, Polycarpa pomaria, and possibly Ascidiella scabra? I'm not sure of the cream coloured one to the right of the A. mentula either.

David Kipling Gosh, what a mix! I'd agree with you as far as I can see. The aspersa//scabra distinction is still one that's difficult for me (although I gather this has been a discussion for decades!) and there may actually be something of a species complex here if you talk to Bernard. Apparently there's a big difference in the number of guard hairs (so start looking down siphons if you can do that without them closing!) and also the eggs of one but not the other species float (yeah, right ...).

Rachel Shucksmith Does anybody have any idea what this squirt is, unfortunately it was fairly hidden in a crevice.

Erling Svensen I think Ascidia mentula.

Rachel Shucksmith thanks Erling

Bernard Picton Rachel, where did you take the photo?

Rachel Shucksmith Hi Bernard, in Shetland on an offshore skerry

Bernard Picton Possibly Polycarpa pomaria, but it doesn't usually have red tipped siphons like this.

David Kipling As an aside, which of the two species of disc bryozoan is that, Rachel?

Richard Yorke Let me see if I have really got them sorted, and I will say Plagioecia

Joanne Porter and I will agree with you Richard Yorke

James Lynott Can anyone help with the ID of the squirts in these images http://flic.kr/p/fochRC & http://flic.kr/p/fnXi3P They were both found in Loch Sunart at around 15m. I had thought Pyura sp. but I'm really not sure.

Tom Kerr Looks like Polycarpa pomaria.

James Lynott Thanks Tom Kerr

David Kipling You have two species here. I think the light colour and siphons at a jaunty angle suggests pomaria for the first one, as Tom Kerr suggests. The second is semi-transparent as opposed to opaque and leathery, and has flared slightly striped siphons -Ascidiella aspersa I think.

James Lynott I was beginning to wonder if they were different species. I have seen A. aspersa before but never with such prominent stripes on the siphons, is this quite common?

David Kipling I think like most squirts they're quite variable (from area to area especially). Then again, we know so little about British ascidians it's embarrassing ...

James Lynott Thanks for your help David Kipling.

David Kipling I wonder if Bernard would like to comment on http://flic.kr/p/fnXi3P .... it has quite a bit of red on it as well!