Andy Horton I have forgotten what the red one is. It will come to me. I have just forgotten. I think it is a sponge.
Bernard Picton Where did you take the pictures Penny? It's a Botryllus or Botrylloides, but not quite right for either of our native species. There's the invasive Botrylloides violaceus in a lot of places these days.
Bernard Picton http://www.ascidians.com/families/botryllidae/Botrylloides_violaceus/botrylloidesviolaceus21.htm
Penny Martin on a horse mussel bed attached to a fishing pontoon in Orkney..... taken on 22nd Jan ..... the sponges were fantastic .
Andy Horton The openings sort of indicate a tunicate but I could not match it do a species in a British book. I was going by form rather than colour.
Penny Martin And this one?? a squirt but not in my book.... Glorious colour
Penny MartinBotrylloides violaceus ???
David Kipling Yes. The other options would be Bot schloss (star-shaped clusters of zooids), or Botrylloides leachi (zooids arranged in 2 parallel chains like bits of this, but 2-tone in colour). I'd go with B. violaceus because of the single (vibrant!) colour, and the variable zooid layout (described as "roughly oval groups or meandering, occasionally branching, double rows or chains").
http://www.marlin.ac.uk/speciesinformation.php?speciesID=2791#
David Kipling It's a non-native, recorded on S West coast of UK plus Milford Haven. Where was this specimen Penny?
Marc Herridge the photo was taken yesterday in orkney
David Kipling Eek!
David Kipling Was recorded in S West in 2004, and there are a couple of Scottish records, both in the Clyde. Troon yacht haven in 2009 and Wemyss Bay in 2010. I can't find anything further north than the Clyde, so this could be an important finding.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2011/03/16182005/59
David Kipling Worth having a word with Liz Cook at SAMS, she leads the Marine Aliens consortium.
http://www.smi.ac.uk/elizabeth-cook
David Kipling I am still wondering at the back of my mind whether this is Botrylloides leachi (which NBN certainly does list as being in Orkney). Could you re-post to the NE Atlantic Tunicates group and we'll see what the experts say?
George Brown First impression suggests B. leachi but if you were to remove all the zooids you'd be left with something that looks like what Erling posted on Seasearch Identifications on the 26th February. Could something be eating only the zooids? I've a similar picture but would rather post in SI to maintain the thread.
David Kipling Do post George Brown.
Penny Martin HI, I can't find NE Atlantic Tunicates group ... is it a closed group ?
David Kipling http://www.facebook.com/groups/248476708561508/
Penny Martin Thanks for this .... but it is a closed group so I am not able to see anything or post anything !!
David Kipling I've put your name forward to join it (I'm a member but not admin).
Penny Martin Thank you.... I am fascinated by them and I am seeing lots up here in Orkney.
David Kipling Me too - I get very strange looks on foreign dive trips when I come up with pics of tunicates and everyone else has got "pretty" pics!
Becky Hitchin I had a squirty day today. Photos later ;)
David Kipling Yah!
Becky Hitchin We do have orange single coloured Botrylloidess in Kent than apparently is leachi
David Kipling Usually as Seasearchers we take just photos, but some species are difficult to tell by photo alone and are important to get right and record - the nuisance non-native Botrylloides violaceus being a good example. Provided it's in the summer months it's pretty easy to tell it apart from the native B. leachi by looking for larvae, which you can do with a stereo microscope or good hand lens on fresh material. The other trick is to take a sample and leave in an box with seawater for a day or two and then look for larvae that have swam out - they are massive and bright red!
David Kipling Welcome to Penny Martin!
Could anyone give some guidance on distinguishing Botrylloides violaceus from B. leachi based on in situ underwater images? Penny has some taken in Orkney that are causing us to scratch our heads a little, and help from the experts would be fabulous.
Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat B. violaceus could be distinguished by a wide margin without zooids around the colony and by its various colour forms orange, red, purple ...
David Kipling Do you have some pictures that you could post Wilfried, to illustrate the difference? Or some URLs to images that you trust.
David Kipling Most of the pictures of B violaceus that I have seen have shown a bright orange version, and the Marlin entry says that B leachi is "two tone" colour ("The one-toned colouration of Botrylloides violaceus distinguishes it from Botrylloides leachi and Botryllus schlosseri."). It was this that made me think B.violaceus for the Deer Sound image that Penny Martin has posted, but that doesn't have the wide margin you describe.
http://www.marlin.ac.uk/speciesinformation.php?speciesID=2791
David Kipling So based on that page do you think Penny Martin's bright orange specimen on this group is violaceus or leachi? I'm confused!
Becky Hitchin Based on marlin, I'd say violaceus, based on NNSS I'd say leachi!
David Kipling But NNSS doesn't say much except "can be bright orange" for violaceus, which is what Penny sees. Argh!!!
Becky Hitchin well it talks about a clear "jelly" over the surface, but mainly a distinctive pattern of zooids (which looks very different to marlin's pattern!)
Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat I don't think that colour as a single distinctive element is enough to identify botrylloides in situ. For the moment nothing is really clear concerning B. leachii colouration and probaby more than one species hides under that name in NE Atlantic waters. As for B. violaceus, the wide margin and the elongated ampula visible within that margin seems to be an interesting point. In that case, none of Penny Martin's pictures are B. violaceus, but they may not be B. leachii either. Here is a link to Y. Saito's website. http://www.shimoda.tsukuba.ac.jp/~hassei/index.html He studies botrylloides and there are many interesting things about their anatomy. And a page with pictures of B. violaceus http://www.shimoda.tsukuba.ac.jp/~hassei/animals/Botryllid/Species/violaceus.html
David Kipling I think we need a trip to Orkney to visit Penny Martin and do some zooid dissection, don't you Becky?
Penny Martin Hey... that would be good ..... you would be very welcome .... just to look at these ??
Penny Martin I'm confused .... but they look like B. Violaceus to me ... I will go out and take some more photos if I can re find them !
David Kipling Always like Orkney - was there last year en route to Fair Isle on MV Halton. I think we need to get you a protocol and reagents so you can relax and fix these critters for dissection ... if you just rip them apart normally in sea water they contract up too much to be able to see anything. Then you can post samples to an expert to check if necessary.
Becky Hitchin David Kipling, I think that would be a great idea!
David Kipling Welcome to Penny Martin!
Could anyone give some guidance on distinguishing Botrylloides violaceus from B. leachi based on in situ underwater images? Penny has some taken in Orkney that are causing us to scratch our heads a little, and help from the experts would be fabulous.
Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat B. violaceus could be distinguished by a wide margin without zooids around the colony and by its various colour forms orange, red, purple ...
David Kipling Do you have some pictures that you could post Wilfried, to illustrate the difference? Or some URLs to images that you trust.
David Kipling Most of the pictures of B violaceus that I have seen have shown a bright orange version, and the Marlin entry says that B leachi is "two tone" colour ("The one-toned colouration of Botrylloides violaceus distinguishes it from Botrylloides leachi and Botryllus schlosseri."). It was this that made me think B.violaceus for the Deer Sound image that Penny Martin has posted, but that doesn't have the wide margin you describe.
http://www.marlin.ac.uk/speciesinformation.php?speciesID=2791
David Kipling So based on that page do you think Penny Martin's bright orange specimen on this group is violaceus or leachi? I'm confused!
Becky Hitchin Based on marlin, I'd say violaceus, based on NNSS I'd say leachi!
David Kipling But NNSS doesn't say much except "can be bright orange" for violaceus, which is what Penny sees. Argh!!!
Becky Hitchin well it talks about a clear "jelly" over the surface, but mainly a distinctive pattern of zooids (which looks very different to marlin's pattern!)
Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat I don't think that colour as a single distinctive element is enough to identify botrylloides in situ. For the moment nothing is really clear concerning B. leachii colouration and probaby more than one species hides under that name in NE Atlantic waters. As for B. violaceus, the wide margin and the elongated ampula visible within that margin seems to be an interesting point. In that case, none of Penny Martin's pictures are B. violaceus, but they may not be B. leachii either. Here is a link to Y. Saito's website. http://www.shimoda.tsukuba.ac.jp/~hassei/index.html He studies botrylloides and there are many interesting things about their anatomy. And a page with pictures of B. violaceus http://www.shimoda.tsukuba.ac.jp/~hassei/animals/Botryllid/Species/violaceus.html
David Kipling I think we need a trip to Orkney to visit Penny Martin and do some zooid dissection, don't you Becky?
Penny Martin Hey... that would be good ..... you would be very welcome .... just to look at these ??
Penny Martin I'm confused .... but they look like B. Violaceus to me ... I will go out and take some more photos if I can re find them !
David Kipling Always like Orkney - was there last year en route to Fair Isle on MV Halton. I think we need to get you a protocol and reagents so you can relax and fix these critters for dissection ... if you just rip them apart normally in sea water they contract up too much to be able to see anything. Then you can post samples to an expert to check if necessary.
Becky Hitchin David Kipling, I think that would be a great idea!
David Kipling Bernard's after his own aquarium to grow a large colony of these Goniodorises so they can be released back into the wild as "natural control"!
Niels Schrieken Nice picture. As far as we know it is botrylloides violaceus
