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Liocarcinus vernalis

(Risso, 1816)

Andy Horton Vernal Crab, Liocarcinus vernalis

Andy Horton I hope my ID is correct? I sometimes put the wrong labels on images.

Andrea Chiarusi Gianna Innocenti to better understand which Portunidae is you should photograph the entire carapace on a dark background

Andy Horton Yep, it is a three handed job.

Andrea Chiarusi Gianna Innocenti I just saw the images on glaucus.org.uk : definitely they are vernal crabs!!

Andy Horton Some notes on Liocarcinus vernalis I have found, which I wrote up a few years ago. Information not verified.

Cathal McNaughton Hi, is this crab Hyas araneus and if so is it also known as the 'toad crab' in English, or does that name only relate to Hyas coarctatus? I think this is a male Hyas araneus (shorter legs than female) based on line drawingas from 'A Key to the Crabs and Crab-like Animals of British Inshiore Waters' by John and Marilyn Crothers, reprinted 1988. Any assistance much appreciated.

Douglas Herdson Best thing, Cathal, is to send photos and details to Dr Paul Clark at the Natural History Museum who wrote "North East Atlantic Crabs: an atlas to distribution".

Cathal McNaughton Thanks Douglas, Dr Paul Clark sounds like the man to speak to, I always called these crabs spider crabs until a few years ago, maybe they are spider crabs but they arent the red coloured ones that grow quite big-Spiney spider crab?

Cathal McNaughton Thanks for the recommendation Douglas.

Cathal McNaughton Hi Dawn, know what you mean, theyre usually festooned with algae/weed and all over pretty furry looking, this one wqas washed up dead on the beach so it may have been washed around a bit first and lost its 'coat'? Going by the drawings in that book, this one definitely resembles araneus much more than coarctatus.

Cathal McNaughton Thanks for this Dawn, at this stage I'm not 100% sure I encontered the term Toad crab before, I possibly saw it refered to as Sea Toad and amazing memory produced the Toad crab name?!?!? Thanks for this, I'll do bit more googling. I'll see what is on MarLIN, cheers.

Cathal McNaughton Thats a nice image Dawn, this one has quite a carpet growing on it but appears to be araneus for sure- carapace more tapered towards the front end, good pic.

Andy Horton I have never received a report of Hyas from the shore anywhere around Britain and I have not had one reported by divers on fishermen off Sussex. However, they are probably overlooked or mistaken for other species. A fine discovery. Pity about the missing legs.

Andy Horton What other crabs are in the picture?

Nicolas Jouault Seen around Jersey, seem to have seen more in recent years. They move fairly slow, so they can be overlooked.

Cathal McNaughton Hi Andy, you helped me ID the 2 below the araneus, the one on the left is the hairy crab (Pilumnus hirtellus) and I think the one on the right is the grey swimming crab, which is possibly the same as the vernal crab (Liocarcinus vernalis?), sorry but I'm not certain about that 2nd one I mentioned, maybe you could refresh my memory?????? The one to its left is an edible crab and there is a prawn and lobster there too.

Cathal McNaughton Ive found quite a few of these over the years, usually just a carapace, seen an occasional live one, have another specimen photographed the same day which has far longer legs and I think that means a female?

Andy Horton Can we see the photograph of the other one please?

Andy Horton It is easy to get this species mixed up with Pisa. And easy to get the two species of Pisa mixed up as well. And even Pisa can be confused with other species. The earlier books were misleading. The books I was brought up on.

Cathal McNaughton Andy what is Pisa's full title please? So I can have a look for it online.

Cathal McNaughton Sorry should have looke dmy book 1st, it gives Pisa armata on its own as far as I can see, yes I see the similarity.

Andy Horton Pisa armata, Pisa tetraodon. I am pretty sure the above are Hyas. Hyas I have never found to be a common and widespread species.

Andy Horton http://www.seawater.no/fauna/arthropoda/araneus.html

Vinh Lam Anyone know what this guy is? It was coughed up by a Tub Gurnard I caught off Brighton. I'm guessing it's an immature of one of the swimming crabs (Portunidae) looking at it's back legs but which species?

Andy Rapson Liocarcinus vernalis?

Andy Horton Carcinus maenas or Liocarcinus vernalis.

Andy Horton http://www.glaucus.org.uk/c-maenas.htm I might even favour the Shore Crab.

Andy Rapson The rear pair of legs look to flattened to me for it to be Carcinus maenas. I've been looking through some books and it does seem to match Liocarcinus marmoreus fairly closely but I'm not really familiar with that species so it makes it more difficult to tell.

Vinh Lam I agree, none of the photos I have of similar sized Shore Crab have as rounded real legs as this one. Also the second last segment is pretty rounded and not seen on any of my shore crabs either. I would say that it is a Liocarcinus but which one?

Gareth Horton Found the first weever fish of the year off Shoreham/wide water. Seems quite early. And quite painful!!

Andy Horton Hearsay or personal experience? http://www.glaucus.org.uk/weever2.htm The pain. Describe in detail for the records please and how the unfortunate fish was trodden on!

David Wilson Two of my 3 children have been stung. Matt was sorting through a shrimp net at Salcombe and was stung on the thumb. Sophie jumped over the side of the boat at Shell Bay, Studland straight on to a weaver. Bathing the area in water as hot as you can bear and anti-histamines help.

Andy Horton Over 40 degrees C, which I think is half boiling water and half tepid water

Gareth Horton Thought I'd replied earlier so apologies. 2.5 feet of water and paddling with the dogs east of the wide water Shoreham. Just caught the ball of my foot behind my left big toe. Was much like stepping on glass or sharp mollusc. Pain was 6/10 for 45 minutes then subsided with waves of soreness all day. First sting for twenty odd years so not bad for a bloke in the sea nearly everyday. Risks are low clearly but glad it was me and not dogs or young son!

Andy Horton One of the BMLSS members did the science on temps. I translated it by sticking the thermometer in a cuppa tea.

Ronald Surgenor Heres a link to one of my weaver fish photos, they can be handled with care and touch wood I haven't been stung yet!! a guy gave a tip of warming a damp towel on the engine block of a boat/car to wrap around the stung area until you get access to proper medical treatment. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ronaldsurgenor/4920060501/

Andy Horton That looks like a large one. Weevers have fierce razor teeth and its lucky they are not bigger as they could do some damage and make the Jaws teeth look tame. Also biting parasites. Deaths are very rare.

Huan Tan They taste good.

Andy Horton Greater Weever seen on the fishmonger's slab

Andy Horton George D Moffat: off Sussex, local boats, not many.

Douglas Herdson Greater Weever also gets caught off Devon and especially Cornwall. Not often landed, but occasional quarter boxes, presumably go for fish soup.

Andy Horton One or two reports indicate the Greater Weever may have a greater sting: (Quote) I was stung on the tip of my right index finger by a Greater Weever three years ago in Tenerife. After spending four days in the local hospital in intense pain, with my whole arm swollen to the size of my thigh, I have lost the use of this finger: I cannot bend it nor straighten it, it is always cold to the touch and any slight scratches take five to six weeks to heal. (Alan Brady). This could be another species though ??? Scorpion Fish species comes to mind. NB: Lesser Weever stings can have the effects of being unable to move toes.

Andy Horton weever | wiv | n. E17. [Perh. transf. use of OFr. wivre serpent, dragon, var. of guivre f. L vipera VIPER.] More fully weever-fish. Any of various elongated NE Atlantic fishes of the genus Trachinus and family Trachinidae, which lie half buried in sand and have venomous dorsal and opercular spines with which they can inflict painful wounds; esp. (more fully lesser weever) T. vipera, which is common along European and Mediterranean coasts (also called viperfish). Also (Austral.), any of various sand perches of the family Mugiloididae. --------------------------------------------------------- Excerpted from The Oxford Interactive Encyclopedia Developed by The Learning Company, Inc.

Andy Horton Echiichthys vipera http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?ID=1364 PS: Going shrimping this morning

Penny Martin enjoy the shrimping ... you are up early !!

Andy Horton I could not get to sleep.

Andy Horton Ideal shrimping conditions, but just an average shrimp haul. Two small Weevers but not much else and no Slipper Soles (which is unusual).

Andy Horton 28 May 2012 A special shrimping trip to Lancing Beach (by Widewater) (with Dudley, & others) in ideal weather conditions (1.5 metre neap low tide) caught three pints of Brown Shrimps, Crangon crangon,between us, but there was not much else in the nets: frequent flatfish fry, two small Lesser Weever, Echiichthys vipera, one swimming crab Portumnus latipes with "fleur-de lis" markings, one Vernal Crab, Liocarcinus vernalis, one badly damaged (but still alive, it nipped me) Masked Crab, Corystes cassivelaunus, a few large green Shore Crabs, Carcinus maenas, and a small Plaice, Pleuronectes platessa, (or possibly a Flounder?).

Animalia (Kingdom)
  Arthropoda (Phylum)
    Crustacea (Subphylum)
      Malacostraca (Class)
        Eumalacostraca (Subclass)
          Eucarida (Superorder)
            Decapoda (Order)
              Pleocyemata (Suborder)
                Brachyura (Infraorder)
                  Eubrachyura (Section)
                    Heterotremata (Subsection)
                      Portunoidea (Superfamily)
                        Polybiidae (Family)
                          Liocarcinus (Genus)
                            Liocarcinus vernalis (Species)
Associated Species