Raja montagui

Paula Lightfoot I think this is a spotted ray, Raja montagui - the spots don't extend to the edge of the wings and it has a single eye spot on each wing. It was in very shallow water in a harbour...perhaps released by an angler?

Paula Lightfoot It's now been suggested it could be a young thornback ray. I'm not sure because it doesn't have banding on the tail. Can Douglas Herdson or Frances Dipper or anyone confirm the ID or suggest what it might be?

Douglas Herdson Hi Paula Lightfoot. Yes, this is Raja montagui. The ocelli on the wings are not always present, but when they are they are distinctive. The paired spots on the tail do resemble banding, however if you can see them there are also quite large lateral spines on the tail. Where was this seen?

Paula Lightfoot Thanks Doug! I saw it in Scarborough last month.

Wendy Northway final query - not at all confident on ray ID - sorry for such a poor photo, I only snap for ID purposes and we were in a drift!

Sheilah Openshaw http://www.sharktrust.org/en/skate_and_ray_factsheets this website is good for id I wish they wouldn't hide under sediment! i'm guessing thornback, don't suppose you remember how many tail fins?

Wendy Northway Sheilah - unfortunately not. We were drifting too fast over teh sand so I was lucky to get this photo. The other one cuts his tail off even further so no chance!

Darryl Mayer Small-eyed ray

Sheilah Openshaw I don't think she's small eyed because she has larger pale splodges on her wings as well as dark brown spots

Darryl Mayer http://britishseafishing.co.uk/small-eyed-ray/

Sheilah Openshaw the pattern on this picture does not go to the edge of the wing

Douglas Herdson It would be nice to see the tail. Some of the pale markings look a bit like Small-eyed, but I am pretty certain it is a Spotted Ray Raja montagui. I have see one with no spots at all.

Sheilah Openshaw I can see where you are coming from, but I still think she's a thornback, the tail would have made it easier

Wendy Northway Just been back to the original photo to see if I can zoom in on the tail but sadly not, it has been clipped. Thanks for all your suggestions

Douglas Herdson Sheilah, I can see a pale ocellus surrounded by 4 or 5 dark spots, which you often, but not invariably, find in R. montagui.

Sheilah Openshaw I think we should agree to differ, she is clearly covered in sediment (which is a behaviour thing) and difficult to see properly, all rays vary individually within the species clavata & montagui can look very similar the only way to be sure is to count the tail fins.

Paula Lightfoot I think this is a spotted ray, Raja montagui - the spots don't extend to the edge of the wings and it has a single eye spot on each wing. It was in very shallow water in a harbour...perhaps released by an angler?

Paula Lightfoot It's now been suggested it could be a young thornback ray. I'm not sure because it doesn't have banding on the tail. Can Douglas Herdson or Frances Dipper or anyone confirm the ID or suggest what it might be?

Douglas Herdson Hi Paula Lightfoot. Yes, this is Raja montagui. The ocelli on the wings are not always present, but when they are they are distinctive. The paired spots on the tail do resemble banding, however if you can see them there are also quite large lateral spines on the tail. Where was this seen?

Paula Lightfoot Thanks Doug! I saw it in Scarborough last month.

Andrew Cleave Montagu's Sea Snail. A specimen about 30mm long from Tean Sound, Isles of Scilly.

Martin Goodey What had they been drinking when they gave this a common name ? :-)

Andrew Cleave Indeed - looks more like a slug than a snail when it wraps its tail around itself. Presumably the same Montagu of Blenny and Harrier fame.

Andy Horton Just the one I saw was curled up like that. Pity about its common name.

Douglas Herdson George Montagu, lived in Kingsbridge, South Devon, from 1798 to 1815. He was cashiered out of the Army after leaving his family to move there with his 'companion in science' Eliza Dorville. They discovered many marine species but took an especial interest in birds. First recognition of Cirl Bunting in Britain. His discoveries were pretty good considering the instruments and literature of the time. He corresponded with Yarrell amongst others. He died of tetanus after stepping on a rusty nail during renovations to Knowle House. I stood outside it last week.

Andrew Cleave Thanks Doug - most interesting. I had wondered if there was any connection with Lord Montagu of Beaulieu. Does he have any other species bearing his name?

Andy Horton Montagu's Harrier is well known. I bet there are others though. I have got an idea there is a mollusc as well which why the second part of the common name for this fish I don't like.

Andrew Cleave Apart from the Harrier, the Blenny and the Sea Snail I have not come across any others - at least not with English names.

Andrew Cleave Have just found a few more attributed to him: Pandalus montagui, Raja montagui, Gymnangium montagui, Chthamalus montagui, Jujubinus montagui, Lunatia montagui, Astarte montagui, Alvania montagui ..........

Tom Hardman Right, nice easy one here! I'm not very good at this hehe. Can someone confirm what ray species this is, and why? Wasn't sure if it is a thornback or spotted ray. Thank you!

Andy Horton I think it is probably a Thornback, Raja clavata. However, it appears my memory is fuzzy about the rays now. Picture is not really clear enough for me. Others probably know better.

Darryl Mayer I'd plump for Raja clavata too. The spots on a Spotted Ray (Raja montagui) are much smaller and also have a grouping suggestive of the Cuckoo Ray towards the rear of the wings.

Chris Barrett Paul Kay is involved in a skates and rays survey. He'd be the man to confirm this photo I think

Douglas Herdson This is a typical Thornback. The mottled pattern with a few larger pale spots on the back. Also dark bars across tail.