Sidnyum elegans

Bernard Picton Shared from Seasearch Identifications

João Pedro Silva This is another photo of this species: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpsilva1971/6861837972/

David Kipling Is this some Sidnyum species?

David Kipling Started what?

David Kipling Ah I see! João Pedro's now a member of this group and has posted some additional pics. What was the answer to 'is it a Sidnyum' (if there was one)?

João Pedro Silva There were (at least) two different species in the photos, one appears to be Sidnyum elegans (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpsilva1971/6851836804/in/datetaken/) and the other there was no definitive answer (the one Bernard posted here and of which I found another photo showing more of the edges of the colony).

George Brown I've been calling the red/pink tunicate in the middle of the picture Aplidium nordmanni. In view of what's been mentioned this last few days I'm now not so sure. Also what is the name of the pale tunicate at 12 o'clock and smaller specimens at 3 o'clock? Loch Eriboll and many other sites around the north.

Joanne Porter Is this the same thing we were seeing in Shetland George?

David Kipling Looks like nordmanni to me - 6-lobed siphons, single red lump with white bits.

George Brown Yes Joanne I'm sure it is. On all the exposed sites there were small examples of this dotted all over the place. And thanks for the confirmation David, it's the same formula I was using! Can you guys help me out with the paler, orangey ones? Many thanks.

Bernard Picton I've seen these George, but I don't have a name for them... Not even certain of that being A. nordmanni...

George Brown Many thanks Bernard. How very interesting. I've been seeing this from the Small Isles right up to Shetland so it's not rare. I can almost predict where it can be found. A. nordmanni till further notice?...

Richard Yorke The sooner we get a book the better, though these facebook pages are teaching me a great deal without one. I had been thinking that was Sidnyum elegans not Aplidium nordmanni but now you point out the 6 lobed siphons and I notice that Habitas mentions there is a pink form I realise I have got to go back and check and probably change the keywords on my pictures.

Richard Yorke As to your initial question George, the pale tunicates look very similar to the Aplidium punctum at 9 o,clock. Is there a form without the spot? I see from Habitas there is a form with white spots.

George Brown Many thanks for this Richard. Will check this out. Mind you, if Bernard is not sure, what chance does the rest of us have! I'm going for extreme close-up shots of inlet and outlets to assist future ID. Any other features we should be focussing on?

Bernard Picton Side-on to show colony shape at edge, stalk, etc.?

Bernd Lipsius

David Kipling At least three species of sea squirt there I think ...

Bernd Lipsius amazing what you can see in this hazy and unfocused picture

David Kipling I'm guessing the peach-coloured lumps in the middle are Sidnyum elegans, and then down in the extreme LHS there are a couple of small patches of what I think is Sidnyum turbinatum. And then middle LHS there is a red siphon, which could be just about anything!

Liz Morris Thanks for the ID tips guys - good spotting Bernd.

Gonçalo Calado Hi folks, We've just found this tunicate in huge quantities in the Sado Estuary, Portugal. It isthe first time I realised they're there. Any guess? Thanks and happy spring! Gonçalo http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpsilva1971/6997942697/in/photostream/

João Pedro Silva Dawn, do you think these lighter ones could also be S. elegans? http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpsilva1971/6997995331/

Bernard Picton I don't think this is Sidnyum elegans as that species has 8 white papillae around each oral siphon. From the photo I can't see the shape of the whole colony. Do you have any shots which show the sides or edges? My impression at the moment is that I haven't seen this one before.

João Pedro Silva I'm afraid I don't have a shot showing either the whole colony or its edge.

João Pedro Silva I've found another photo which may provide the perspective you wanted, Bernard: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpsilva1971/6861837972/in/datetaken/ I'm convinced there are two species involved here. One more pinkish with smaller colonies and with a smooth white ring around the siphon (the one I posted originally in this thread and also this latest post). The other more yellowish and with the distinct papillae you mentioned: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpsilva1971/6851836804/in/datetaken/

Bernard Picton I think you are right - two different things here. I really don't have a clue apart from saying Polyclinidae. The one with the deep grooves reminds me of Morchellium, but is certainly not Morchellium argus. I'll ask Xavier Turon if he knows these ones.

Marco Faasse Is this Aplidium elegans? (Rade de Brest, Brittany, May 2013)

Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat Yes, and next time you come around here...let us know ;-)

David Kipling It's got the 8-fold lobes around the oral siphons so it's not A nordmani (looks similar but has 6). So I wouldn't argue with that ID.

Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat Yes David 6 for A. nordmani and 8 for A. elegans

Marco Faasse Thanks Wilfried and David! Wilfried, will do!

Richard Yorke That just came at the right time and helped me identify an Aplidium elegans in Lyme Bay :-)

Marco Faasse This website may help ID certain species in (especially the south of) the UK: http://www.mer-littoral.org/flore-faune-marine.php

Richard Yorke Yes, I have come across that, and found it of some use, but not speaking French I can only look at the pictures and I don't get useful information like the number of folds which helped me greatly in this case.

Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat Sorry, the English version is still "work in process" ;-) Anne Bay-Nouailhat is "slow working" ^_^

Holly Latham Argh, that just confused me! Change of name again... Sidnyum elegans = Aplidium elegans. When'd that happen?!

David Kipling They're lumping the lumps ...

Matt Doggett haha - confusing ! Have to remember that one...

Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat The genus Sidnyum is no longer valid. To simplify, Monniot C. and Monniot F. 1987 considered that the number of lobes, varying inside some species of Sidnyum and Aplidium, can not be a sufficent character to distinguish the two genus.

David Kipling Leaving us with ~ 300 Aplidium sp. worldwide I believe?

Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat David, Ce n'est pas à cause des français Monniot qu'il y a plus de 300 espèces d'Aplidium dans le monde, mais à cause de Darwin qui a inventé l'évolution des espèces :)

Bernard Picton But genera are just a convenient way of grouping species. Although Darwin didn't explain the origin of species (the process of speciation) in his book of that name we have now had a long time since to study the process. We know that most speciation is a result of a single species splitting into a pair or a few as a result of geographic isolation of populations. So where we choose to put the divisions between genera is really arbitrary, one taxonomist's genus can be another's tribe. We don't have enough ranks in the Linnean system to name each branch in the tree. As we get more complete trees based on DNA sequences we find that most genera in organisms which have few morphological characters are simply guesses, often poor guesses. It is inconvenient to have a genus with 300 species, so it will get split into many. It is silly to have genera with only one species, so humans should be called Pan sapiens, not Homo at all.....

Marco Faasse But the Pope says Man is not an animal ... ;-)