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Lissoclinum perforatum
(Giard, 1872)
Tony Gilbert I have this as Lissoclinum perforatum, as it matches the descriptions I've seen and read. However, the colouration for L. perforatum is usually dull-grey. I don't think its Didemnum maculosm, although this can be orange.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tonyjgilbert-images/7651716618/in/set-72157630764104272
The coverage was around 0.5m, in 10m, in the Fairy swimthrough of Sugar Loaf Caves, and about 6m before the entrance, on a vertical wall. The sizings of the exhalant syphons and the distribution seem to be in keeping with L. perforatum. It could be that its location has something to do with the colouring.
David Kipling Not going to stick my head out for Didemnids ;) What are those oval opening in addition to the in/out openings?
Becky Hitchin Does look like Lissoclinum
Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat Hi, Why David are you so disdainful about Didemnids? ;o)
It's the same thing with sponges : once key features are settled, they are rather easy to ID. It's not L. perforatum which is always whitish and different ;o) but a Polysyncraton, quite certainly P. lacazei, which can be pale red in dark places such as caves.
David Kipling Oh I like them, just find them very difficult to ID! I just worry I call everything L perforation and I'm probably wrong most of the time.
Becky Hitchin we need a photo album of all the different didemnids so we can see the differences
Tony Gilbert There are several Didemnid IDs on www.Habitas.org/marinelife , but am sure there are more. Nice picture on: http://www.european-marine-life.org/32/photo-polysyncraton-lacazei-wb01.php, from Wilfried.
Caves certainly do play havoc with ID'ing, especially those species that change appearance/colouration under lowered-light levels.
And, I don't know whether the oval openings are part of the colony or could be something else, such as tiny clams :-)
Thanks, a difficult one as its similar to other tunicates, glad I asked.
Becky Gill Does anyone know the type of sea squirt? It was taken near Fowey and I've also seen it at Porth Kerris.
David Kipling Thick cartilaginous test, slight reddish tinge, attached on side, white lobes on siphons (6 and 8-fold symmetry), siphons far apart, and encrusted with epibionts and crud. Ascidia mentula ;)
David Kipling You get more marks if you show your working ...
Becky Gill Brilliant. Thank you!
David Kipling The 8 teeth should be around the oral (inhalant) siphon on the end, I think this specimen is just stuck down in a weird fashion. More examples here:
http://www.habitas.org.uk/marinelife/species.asp?item=ZD1500
David Kipling Dawn Watson can have a second go if she wants, there's didemnid squirts in this picture too.
Becky Gill Ooh, really? I'm trying to learn my squirts, so at a guess lissoclinum perforatum?
Paula Young Hello...help with ID needed please?? Could this be Trididemnum cereum? Kent waters near Dover, about 12 m on chalk reef. Ta v much!
Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat Hi, Could you tell us if it was in or near a harbour or marina or was it in open sea?
Paula Young It was in between two harbours - about 4 km east of one and 6km west of another, and about 1/2 km off a cliff shoreline, so not right out in open sea.
Paula Young And about 9m down rather than 12m!
David Kipling Not what I'd call T cereum no. Chris Wood has shown me a pic of a Didemnid that looks like this from a Seasearcher on the south coast ... Same pink blush and 3D appearance. No idea what it is, will be interested to see if Wilfried recognises it at all from the other side of La Manche :)
Paula Young Ta v much....at least I knew it wasn't Lissoclinum :-)
Paula Young And to give some idea of scale, it probably covered an area of about 1 square foot.
David Kipling (that's 30cm x 30cm Wilfried...)
David Kipling Was there much of this about Paula, or just the one patch?
Paula Young I only saw the one patch, and we covered quite a bit of the reef in unusually good viz. I thought it was Pachymatisma from a distance, as it looked greyish, albeit much lighter than normal, so went to have a better look and realised it wasn't that, and that it must be a squirt.
Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat Mmm, I've got pictures of a similar species from the rade de Brest and Port-Tydy (Groix Island harbour) but also in some places in open sea..
Externally, it looks like Lissoclinum perforatum but more "fleshy", with fewer and wider exhaling siphons and with a white, greyish or pinkish colour. Could this be Lissoclinum perforatum?
It requires closer observation to be sure. Anyone has an opinion about that?
David Kipling I've just had a look at the pictures that James Lucey took somewhere off the S Coast ... absolute dead ringer for this, same large bulbous growth habit and pink hue, same opening shapes. I'll ask him if he can post the pics (with some location details) on here. Looks very interesting Paula!
Paula Young Should've got a sample I guess, but I'm not sure how confident I am of doing that yet...
David Kipling Well bang goes Lissoclinum youngensis until you do ;)
Paula Young I worry about hurting it...'tis an animal after all ;-)
Becky Hitchin I know wwe've seen this pinky Lissoclinum beasty around Kent before over the last few years
David Kipling Do we have sites where we could go back and get some? Be great to get some and compare with the species Wilfried is seeing.
David Kipling You don't have to worry about hurting it, Paula. Firstly they only have rudimentary CNS as adults, and you'd be taking living whole animals (zooids) which then get anaesthetised in propylene phenoxytol before going into formalin. All very tree-huggy :)
David Kipling (so for a start, it should be relatively straightforward to work out if it's a Lissoclinum versus Didemnum versus Trididemnum by looking at the zooids - that'd move us forward).
Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat To compare with yours, Rade de Brest, 4 meters
Wilfried Bay-Nouailhat another, Port Tudy, Groix, 3 meters
George Brown Great photos everyone. Can we not ID via macro photos? If so, what camera angle would be the most productive?
David Kipling From the inside showing the zooids (sadly) - so we can see numbers of rows of branchial bars and the like. The literature on didemnids focuses on internal anatomy.
George Brown Something from the Didemnidae family of Tunicates such as Lissoclinum perforatum? When the colony is so small it's difficult to be specific.
Chris Barrett Where was this taken, Joao? I agree with George. In Britain, Botryllus schlosseri looks similar, although like George says, it's hard to be specific due to the size
João Pedro Silva Chris, all my photos one Flickr are georeferenced with relatively good resolution (I'd say error is less than 50m). This was shot on the outside wall of the harbour of Sesimbra, Portugal (latitude: 38.43414, longitude: -9.11436).
George Brown Sorry Chris but a bottle of Glenmorangie's finest says it's definitely not Botsch. :) No evidence of "stars".
Chris Barrett I'd love to win that bottle of Glenmorangie, but I have a feeling you'd win it!
Chris Barrett I just wondered if those little patches/holes in the mass may have been 'stars' in the making?
George Brown That's an interesting point you make. I've got an image of a botsch tiny colony of one "star". I'll post soon as I find it.
Tony Gilbert B. schlosseri is recorded in the Canary Islands although I haven't seen it in Lanzarote yet. It is recorded as rare from the Especies de Marinas, but I wonder whether the colonies mutate in someways and adapt to the local conditions and water temperatures.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tonyjgilbert-images/6679762995/in/set-72157628362398207/
Claire Goodwin I'm with George on this one - not B. scholosseri. Far to gelatinous looking and no regular colonies. The large exhalent siphons made me think of Lissoclinum perforatum too but it doesn't have the clear regular smaller inhalent ones found in this species. A closer pic might help but I don't think we'll be able to get much further - sorry!.
João Pedro Silva Thanks! I posted a closeup but I'm not sure if you got to see it:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3821209169794&set=o.341487989207852&type=1&ref=nf
Claire Goodwin Thanks - definitely looks too fuzzy for anything I can put a name on.
