Karl FehlauerChromodoris reticulata, Ammo Jetty, Woodman Point, Western Australia
Canon G12 Recsea housing twin YS 110 Alpha strobes x 3 wet lens
F7.1 @ 1/500th sec ISO 100
Karl FehlauerChromodoris reticulata (I believe)
Ganon G12 in a Recsea housing with twin YS 110 Alpha strobes and a x3 wet lens
F7.1 1/160th ISO 100
Ammo Jetty, Woodman Point, WA
Gary Cobb The whole issue on resolving Chromodoris reticulata and C. tinctoria has been a nightmare for quite a while. Some scientists put he two species into one species because it is too hard. We here at Nudibranch.com.au have divided them. There are two distinct species morphology speaking. It would take DNA analysis to differentiate the two.
Basically:
- Chromodoris tinctoria has has dark brown/grey rhinophores and white gills.
- Chromodoris reticulata has red rhinophores and gills and is larger in size.
Both can have a yellow margin but it can also be absent.
Ashley Missen There is anthor one I would like to add to the collection from Blairgowrie - Chromodris sp. (3 - Nudibase) with areas of yellow meshing on the mantle and yellow mantle edge with orange spot and yellow markings on the foot also the gills have white stems and orange to red branching -- larger size -- Cheers Ash
Ken Thongpila Thanks Gary Cobb. Great details and easy to understand. Keep on coming please... Love it....
Karl FehlauerChromodoris reticulata
Ammo Jetty, Woodman Point, Western Australia
Canon G12 Recsea housing twin YS 110A strobes & a +3 macro wet lens
F7.1 @ 1/250s ISO 100
Ryan Pearson Time for a test... I've just returned from the Philippines having dived off Malapascua Island and Moalboal - both in Cebu. Here are some of the gastropods I found on the dives... who can ID the most? :P
Ryan Pearson PS. Not all my finest photo's, and I know there are some double ups :)
Blogie Robillo Nice collection, Ryan! I didn't see #9 in Malapascua...
Phillip Kearney Not sure about Sp Tasmanian 11.0 m 20 C
Ashley Missen This is a tricky one as I have it in Nudibase as Chromodoris sp. (3) but some people believe it to be either Chromodoris tinctoria or Chromodoris reticulata - my belief is that it is a different species to the other 2 - But this is a much debated view. this paticular version C. sp.3 is a temperate water variation - Can you Please send the Photo with the info on where it was Found to data@nudibase.com - Cheers and thanks Ash
Bernard Picton I think there's a whole tinctoria/reticulata group which someone will have to sort out some day.
Ashley Missen I am Working on it a bit - I will be Chating with Dr Richard Willan about it in March during the Nudibranch Conference - my view is the yellow interlacing on the mantle and the yellow marking on the foot make it a different species - Cheers Ash
Bernard Picton I'm so out of touch I hadn't heard there was a conference. Can you post details Ashley?
Bernard Picton I've some C. tinctoria group photos from Taiwan and Indonesia. I'll take a look on Monday when I'm back in work and post them here for you.
Ashley Missen Sorry got it wrong not a conference but a workshop -- http://www.nudibranch.com.au/workshop.html - Cheers Ash
Bernard Picton Thanks Ashley. Yes Jim Anderson told me about this so I wondered if it was the same thing. I'd love to be going! :-)
Magnus Ã…kerblom-Wiker Short story: Nudi on turtle's flipper. Tulamben, Bali.
Long story: Nudi was minding its own business when Turtle comes crashing in. Nudi tumbles through the water and ends up on Turtle's flipper where it hangs on for dear life until Turtle decides it is time to go for some air. Nudi ends up where it started.
Kristen Soong agreed. i also collect nudis when i can't ID them underwater. i put them in an open circulation tank (my work place is just by the sea!). i wait for a few days to see if they lay ribbon eggs (i am currently studying their reproductive cycle). Then i gently release them back into the sea.
Bernard Picton Great, I love your respect for the nudibranchs! Do remember though, they live for one year, lay thousands of eggs and have very tiny brains. The important thing is to conserve their environments and if you can inspire other humans by showing them beauty and the inter-connection of all life that is the really important thing to do...
Erwin Koehler One hint: fix the screw top of the collection containers with some kind of thin fishing line, I remember that I lost many of them while putting the slugs into the container...
Patrik Good Great work, Kristen Soong. Hope to be able to follow up on your research. Just having an open question with nudi spawn (not sure if it's ribbon eggs) at the moment. Well said, Bernard Picton. It reminds me of some politicians: tiny brains but laying lots of mostly infertile eggs and when it comes to take responsibility they are gone. But let's be respectful. Erwin Koehler, I know exactly what you are talking about. Difficult to implement though with the line running the risk of being caught and the container leaking after the installation. One more suggestion though: don't try to fix the lid once the branch is in there. Most branchs I had the pleasure to meet, liked to hide in the threads and you might squash the critter.
Bernard Picton This is a great idea Patrik, swapping practical techniques with each other. I always use a plastic bag, about A4 size, as it is easy to get nudibranchs in by suspending them first in the water, then opening the bag with a 'swoosh'. A big cooler box is good for transporting them without the water warming up too much.
Patrik Good Interesting technique with the plastic bag, Bernard. Will try it. Certainly great for travelling. Here we have got decent currents most of the time and suspending a branch midwater normally means loosing it. I used to have a swish bottle, a clean empty salad dressing bottle with a big body and narrow neck. I would create succion under water with it and suck the critter from the substrate. Most critters would cling on to the substrate though. Often the critters went lost when sucked past the bottle. Additionally, the narrow neck didn't allow me to put dangerous hooks and lead sinkers into the container that easily if needed. Also, the plastic scratched and I could never be sure wether the critter had made it inside. Downside of the big containers is the attachment on the top D-ring (the bum or crotch D-rings don't work that well in my opinion). Normally tucked away under my arms they sometimes trap my hoses, not really a safe practice. So, I wouldn't recommend to clip the bottle(s) to the top D-rings. Swapping practical techniques is essential when you start collecting. It took me a year to sort issues out. My biggest questionmark to this day is what to do with the camera while collecting. I never liked the idea of having it lie in the substrate and getting pounded when a boat passes by. I think some people flick it over their head onto their backs but I am not really sure how to do this practically. My main goal here was to get agreement that collecting can be done responsibly and is nothing to be condoned (especially if you have ever read a scientific article or asked for an ID). Some dive agencies and other organisations can be too religious about certain aspects of diving with their 'leave nothing but bubbles' policy.
Bernard Picton Yes, I was in Fuerteventura once and the dive guides made me put a nudibranch back, but of course dropping it through the water column probably meant it never even made it to the bottom without a fish eating it! Mostly you can take the opportunity to educate them and in most places now the dive guides are really tuned in to finding nudibranchs, which is great.
Patrik Good Finding and collecting nudis is the first step. Putting a world spanning network of conservation help centres in place should be the second. ;-) Still haven't heard anything from my local museum that pay both, a collection manager molluscs as well as a specialist in DNA with all the equipment in place. Might need a door opener at one stage, Bernard.
Patrik Good I was asked by a friend how I collect and conserve critters. The answer is that I collect with the tools above, photograph and then release. Due to a lack of actual clients (actually a total disinterest for my free services) I will not conserve the critters for science in the near future. I think I was a bit over-enthousiastic about the world spanning network of conservation help and DNA analysis centres for amateur branchers. I am sure it already exists but the barriers to access it and make it a publicly available tool for branchers in my opinion are too high. Enjoy your collecting and photographing and keep sharing your finds here or in other forums. Enjoying it is more important than to know what exactly it is that you enjoy.
IkeBe Ph Thank you Patrik Good! Let's just keep diving and finding new critters along the way! And having fun too :) Cheers!
Gary Cobb Patrik do you mean 'Collect and Preserve'?
Gary Cobb Collecting and storing specimens for science is a great service. If rare and new animals are found and left alone the chances are they will never be seen again.
Patrik Good Gary Cobb, oops, of course I mean preserve. I will collect and photograph but will never delay releasing the critters again while trying to organise preservation. If scientists are interested in new finds they should be proactive. Quick DNA analysis seems quite critical if someone is serious about preservation and research. From what I read, stored specimens even deteriorate while preserved in high concentration ethanol under very cold conditions after only one year. I doubt the value for research of these museum or even worse private collections. When I read scientific research and look at some of their methodology, analysing samples that are stored in random places, from random times, by random or not so random people, for whatever reasons, in random quality and with whatever techniques I really wonder where science has been sacrificed and how on earth the scientis' claims can be substantiated based on such a data basis. Where are all the validity and robustness tests? Furthermore, I have lost the believe that all biologists are actually interested in biodiversity and want new species to be found and their habitat described. If they were serious about it they would deliver efficient heuristics as to how people like you and me, and unfortunately also their competitors can provide - as you call it - a great service to them or the world. My point was that we will continue to enjoy and getting excited about branchs that we - and maybe the world - have never seen before, no matter whether scientists know about, approve or applaud to it. Preservation seems only an option if you have developed strategic partnerships with interested scientists prior to your exciting finds. Photographic documentation and identification is the only tool citizen scientists have available at reasonable costs and with decent quality in order to make themselves and maybe the world happy :-)
Patrik Good Did that sound a bit harsh? Just making this one clear: I like science and the work that scientists do - especially the ones in this group. Luckiliy scientists are humans too. They are under a lot of pressure to publish and they sometimes make mistakes or just take the best data out there without really caring much if and how that data basis could be improved. We have seen scientists in this group that are proactive to a certain degree and try to involve people in the field, give them directions. Thanks for that. It is appreciated. What gets me in a really grumpy mood is that a local DNA scientist after two emails has finally respondended and basically declined cooperation. The curator molluscs and also the collection manager for Molluscs and Crustacea of my local museum still have not responded. I have no idea what they are doing and they probably don't know or care what I am doing. Does anyone deal with them? Maybe after the story of Goniobranchus reticulatus (according to the researchers still called Chromodoris reticulata) with their losing and regrowing penises, the public will ask them to come forward (the scientists I mean) and become more accountable.
Gary Cobb Taxonomy is a world unto itself.
Bernard Picton Patrik, I wonder if all this row in Europe over horse meat being passed off as beef will result in cheaper, faster DNA sequencing facilities which we taxonomists could piggy-back on. I agree, quickly getting sequences would be the way to go, but always remember we also need to be very careful to document each sample and photograph it well, so that the DNA results can be used to clarify our understanding of each species in the wild.
Patrik Good Good on the horses then :-) Another question: once collected it is more difficult to take a good picture. It is hard for me to take photos from the side or from underneath. Bernard Picton, I saw that there are microscopes on the market that let you rotate the lens rather than the sample and take care of proper lighting at the same time. What microscopes are you using? Are there any you could recommend and that would be affordable and suit branching needs?
Gary Cobb If you use a clear glass dish with flat sides you can get shots of the sides and ventral angles.
Patrik Good Aren't there any problems with distortion and lighting with a glass dish? Where can I get 'optical grade' glass dishes? I mean it can't be a cheapy or plastic. The underside shouldn't be a problem with any glass but the sides probably still need experimenting. Are you using round or square glass dishes? It normally takes me about half a day to get the shots I want. Not always do I have this sort of time to spare. So, sometimes I give up. Would still like to experiment with a microscope that allows to take pictures. Most of my critters are under 10mm, some hardly 1mm. Bernard Picton had a point, because with DNA analysis I was sort of trying to shortcut the photographing part.
Bernard Picton I made a dish with pieces of picture glass and aquarium silicone glue. I started with a thin upright tank, made the same way, but I need to make a new one. Picture framers do use a special anti-reflective coated glass, manufactured by Schott, but I haven't managed to find a supplier.
Bernard Picton http://www.schott.com/architecture/english/products/anti-reflective-glass/mirogard.html?so=uk&lang=english
Bernard Picton I see they have a new one, Amiran...
http://www.schott.com/architecture/english/products/anti-reflective-glass/amiran.html?so=uk&lang=english
Patrik Good I love your post, Bernard. We should start a folder with photos of these practical tools photos. Maybe other people want to share their hints too. Will try to build one of these glass containers.
Patrik Good Are there any branchers in the Brisbane area that would like to co-operate in trying to build some of these glassy containers?
Patrik Good Bernard Picton, I contacted Schott AG, the producer of the glass, explaining what I need it for. They said that Amiran is the way to go. They suggested 6mm glass. It can be cut like normal glass.
Blogie Robillo Goniobranchus reticulatus (?). This poor critter is missing one of its rhinophores. Also, is that its anus sticking out beside the gills?
Length abt 1.5cm; depth 11m.
Penn Dls I thought you got a yawning nudi. :)
Blogie Robillo hehehe :D
Blogie Robillo Orietta Rivolta - Gary recently posted a document here and it outlined taxonomic changes made to a number of dorid nudibranchs. Chromodoris reticulata is now Goniobranchus reticulatus. The reason I put (?) up there was because I thought maybe this was a completely different species because of that anal projection...
Patrik Good Your nudi looks is similar to the document that you are mentioning: it is lacking essential things and has some things too much. In the case of the document it's letters in species and genera names, with your nudi it's body parts :-) Thanks for uploading, great posts of yours, Blogie Robillo. Wonder what caused this abnomalities.
Blogie Robillo Patrik Good - I wonder too. The lack of one rhinophore is probably due to predation, but that tubular projection is really perplexing!
João Pedro Silva Did you check Bill Rudman's collection of malformations on SSF? I think it's just one of those odd cases.
http://www.seaslugforum.net/showall/abnormal
João Pedro Silva There's a similar case on SSF with a Glossodoris rufomarginata:
http://www.seaslugforum.net/find/1506
