Palio nothus

David Fenwick Snr Wonderful sight this afternoon, had 5 Palio nothus with their eggs, under a rock beside the slipway at Chimney Rocks, Penzance, Cornwall.

David Kipling Palio nothus, taken in a rock pool in the Gower (Wales). All the intertidal ones I've seen have this sort of colour and the pointy tubercles, hence the ID. Apart from this being a particularly rubbish photo compared to Erling's (well, have you ever tried to get a dSLR and housing into a 20cm deep rockpool?!?) it does look very similar to me.

Gary Cobb This ID is correct.

David Fenwick Snr Your getting good at finding these David!

David Kipling Well first of all I discounted it because there were masses of barnacles around (this was on the tidal causeway at Worms Head) and I assumed it was Onchidoris bilamellata and didn't look too closely initially, I was too interested in the little Asterina in the bucket. I wasn't having a good day, since I first thought it was A gibbosa (wrong, it was the uber-cute A phylactica!) and a closer look at the nudi revealed my first thoughts were wildly wrong too! But we got there in the end. If you're coming to the Porcupine fieldtrip you can have a look yourself - it's in the same place.

David Fenwick Snr Sadly I rarely get out of county nowadays. I've only found the species once, at Spit Point, Par, near St. Austell, Cornwall; lovely site.

René Weterings Nice!! I have seen this species for the first time myself, yesterday in the Eastern Scheldt in The Netherlands. 2 times, 1 about 5mm long and 1 about 1cm long.

David Kipling David ... of course you were standing next to me when we found the one in the tic tac box at Carnsew, which we wouldn't have were it not for your local expertise for the hot spots.

David Fenwick Snr Yes found another hot spot the other day, which I surveyed pretty well, problem was the were zero nudibranchs, most surprisig. I went to a non-hot spot the day after and found four species under one rock. Nudibranchs can be so un-predictable LOL.

George Brown Arhh! Must pay more attention! Only when I reviewed my images on computer did I see Palio nothus lurking above the Polycera.

John de Jong I searched some dives for this green monster, till now without succes....

João Pedro Silva Great find :) I have an entire set on flickr with "uninvited guests" and often go back to "dive into" older photos.

Jim Anderson Where did you photograph this elusive animal?

George Brown Alas, not Scotland Jim! Martin's Haven, South-west Wales. I'm forced to say it's quite good diving. 15 minutes into the dive I'd seen half a dozen species I've never seen before. Nice folk too! They even make their own nudibranchs! Some even dress up as them.

Jim Anderson Thanks George.

Tony Gilbert Yes indeed, a great find George. I've also fallen into this trap. On taking a poor image of a Flabellina at Loch Boisdale Outer Hebrides, as my camera had issues with waving kelp, and the lens was beyond its limits, I didnt bother with the image until later. On inspection, I discovered a Doto sp. right next to it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tonyjgilbert-images/5084376976/in/set-72157624688589439 The Flab is around 1cm, and I think the Doto is D. onusta, about 3mm long, at least that it was we identified it as at the time, and not D. coronata.

George Brown Great images Tony. Sure it was Loch Boisdale? The Flab looks like its been through the Corryvreckan. Backwards!

Tony Gilbert Yes indeed, well not quite Boisdale Loch par-se, but literally out of the entrance and slightly to the north, about 200m - there was a pinnacle there - which we named Loch Boisdale Pinnacle! I remember the dive quite well as I had camera trouble throughout, and temporary buddy loss. And, a carnivorous sea slug Simnia patula on Alcyonium: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tonyjgilbert-images/5083784299/in/set-72157624688589439 I don't think there is one of these recorded for east Outer Hebrides.

Kate Lock Fantastic find and another new record for Martins Haven and Skomer MNR ...wow! I will have to add it to this years project report - thanks George......maybe I will have to make you a plastacine model nudibranch as a prize!!!

George Brown Kate/Arun, that would be wonderful! :)

David Fenwick Snr Is it possible to identify this egg mass, was found under a rock on the lowershore at Little London reef, Marazion, Cornwall. 24.08.13. Thanks.

Erling Svensen Looks like Flabellina verrucosa for me.

David Kipling Tritonia lineata does nice little spirals too, but then again I think a few other species will...

Arne Kuilman Get this card or ask them: https://www.facebook.com/ZoekkaartNederlandseZeenaaktslakken I've got one at home and will have a look for you later.

Brendan Oonk I don't think yoy will find it on that card Arne. These eggs don't look like they are by a species of nudi that lives in The Netherlands...

Arne Kuilman It's not on the chart indeed )-: circlewise it's kind of like Elysia eggs.

João Pedro Silva The eggs I've found from Elysia viridis were much smaller: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpsilva1971/7741931486/

Arne Kuilman I meant look like. Elysian doesn't lay under rocks, just the spiral pattern

Erling Svensen Looks like these...... http://uwphoto.no/shopexd.asp?id=14044

Brendan Oonk Erling is that the reason you said they were Flabelina verucosa eggs ;)

Erling Svensen Yes, it is. They are quite typical in the outher edge, so for me they looks quite F. verrucosa like.

Erling Svensen In winter we have millions of F. verrucosa, the most common nudi in Egersund and Stavanger. And lots of eggs.

Bernard Picton Cornwall is too far south for F. verrucosa. On the other hand I don't know these eggs I'm afraid. Aeolidiella glauca does lay a straight spiral a bit like this.

Brendan Oonk It is not A. glauca.

Erling Svensen Could be this verrucosa think it is too cold here up in the North and will expand the summer by mooving South?

Brendan Oonk Here you can see A.glauca + eggs http://www.natuurbericht.nl/?id=2727

David Fenwick Snr I'm still trying to find a sea slug to match up with it at the moment but nudibranchs seem few and far between at the moment. The only sea slug found today was a 2mm Palio nothus, a sea slug that has consistantly turned up for us throughout the year this year.

David Fenwick Snr Another image of A. glauca. http://www.conchsoc.org/node/5853

David Kipling https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=332958726789556&set=oa.266943763416911&type=3&theater

David Kipling T. lineata caught laying eggs like this ...

David Fenwick Snr Can only find on record of this species for Cornwall David and it was for 3-4 miles offshore. Going to have to keep my eyes open if it is this species.

David Kipling Really? Common as muck up here (albeit Skomer is more sediment-rich and T lineata seems to thrive here). Let me have a look to see whether it's in my Cornish albums, perhaps it doesn't like the clear water down with you ...

Becky Hitchin Stop bragging! :P

David Kipling That's why it's a MNR ;) Biodiversity hotspot!

Terry Griffiths And a few around Torquay.

Bernard Picton Great photo David Kipling! I've never seen T. lineata spawn but it is a good match. They are not normally found on shore in my experience so altogether some interesting observations in this thread.

Kirstie Harris I also found this one, which I don't think we get in Devon. You can see how small it is compared to the cup coral on the left.

Tamsyn MAnn I've only ever seen 1 in Devon... but I know others have seen them here too...

João Pedro Silva Tritonia lineata

Terry Griffiths Loads in the right place Kirstie Harris

Kirstie Harris I'm obviously looking on the wrong places! He's a lovely nudi.

Keith Hiscock Lots of them today at Smallmouth, N. Devon. And three years ago, same place, same date.

Kirstie Harris I feel like I've been swimming around with my eyes closed all this time!

Arne Kuilman We've got smaller nudi's (-: such as Palio nothus. Great find, I am still looking for a Tritonia

David Kipling I was about to say "these are quite common in Pembrokeshire in silty habitats" but then I saw where you recorded this from!

Kirstie Harris The site was certainly very silty :)

David Kipling Which site?

Kirstie Harris The Dead Eye Wreck at Skomer.

Ronni Bless Bekkemellem Hello everyone. :) I can't seem to sort this one out .. name ? Up North in Norway.

George Brown Palio nothus? Interesting colour.

Erling Svensen Palio dubia, I think. The colour is like we have them here out of Kristiansund.

Kjetil Breivik Johnson Agree with Erling, dubia, we have lots of these around here in Trøndelag at the moment! Se them on every dive.

Ronni Bless Bekkemellem Okey thanks :-)

Erling Svensen A very tiny Palio dubia from yesterdays dive in the harbour. A lot of nudis now, so I hope that Bernard Picton will have a great time when I pick him up in Bergen this week.

Peter H van Bragt Erling, this is Palio nothus, not P. dubia

Erling Svensen Jippppiiiiiii. A new spieie.......... Thanks alot......

Erling Svensen ..... specie.......

Christian Skauge Congrats! This one is really cool, and quite rare in Norway :-) Looking forward to seeing you very soon, btw!

Gary Cobb Geeez what's the water temp?

João Pedro Silva Gary, let's look at the bright side: it's above freezing and warmer than in January :) We have a lot higher temperatures and right now it's 13-14ºC here in Portugal. An interesting thing I've been noticing is that some species occurring both in Iberia and much further north (for instance, in the UK, The Netherlands, Norway, etc) do seem to grow a lot more in colder waters. Examples of such species include Polycera faeroensis, Polycera quadrilineata and Limacia clavigera. More bryozoans? More dissolved oxygen? Don't know...

Gary Cobb Buurrrr! My dry suit will keep me from the chill thats for sure Joao. Thanks! Yes I am finding here on the Sunshine Coast (water temp 26C) <- weep! Species from the tropics up north and about 10 years ago we were finding temporate species but not now.

João Pedro Silva I'm not sure if here we are witnessing species spreading their distribution range or we are getting more (and better) documents of observations.... I'm more inclined towards the latter. Initiatives such as the Nudibranch Safari have been producing really interesting results. Above 15ºC and in the summer I change to a semi-dry (can't stand the heat at the surface).

Gary Cobb I know what you mean! I choose the later!

Anna Nudi Burn What a gorgeous little fella :)

Geoffrey Van Damme Blairgowrie polycera sp.

Ashley Missen Nice Find

Ashley Missen where did you find him on the pier

Geoffrey Van Damme Hi Ash ,there's actually quite a few of these showing up lately ,seen about 5 or 6 each dive over the last few dives in different areas ,at the end and along the second moring.

Mark Farrer I thought they were juvenile Polycera hedgpethi but the more i look at them im sure there not.

Brendan Oonk When I look at this pic, I see similiarity to a nudi we have over here: Palio nothus. Could this be some kind of Palio??

Gary Cobb I think this could be a dark colour-form of Polycera japonica Baba, 1949

René Weterings "Palio nothus" Found in the Eastern Scheldt, the Netherlands. 5th of march 2013

Pascal Van Acker gevonden op de stenen of bij de pijlers?

René Weterings Op de stenen tussen de 3-7m diepte bij hoog water.

Arne Kuilman Palio nothus is prevalent in the Oosterschelde right now. Found 7 in 2 different dives at Zeelandbrug.

René Weterings "Palio nothus" Found in the Eastern Scheldt, the Netherlands. 5th of march 2013

Vanessa Costa Cool find!

René Weterings Yes it was cool....! 3 degrees Celsius....:-P

Vanessa Costa Aha so that will make it a freezingly cool find :-D

Becky Hitchin Did I find a nudi? Or a nudi shaped non-nudi thing? I can't quite decide!

Sarah Bowen If we're going down the nudi route, it looks rather like Palio nothus. Was it fairly shallow/under rocks/intertidal?

Brendan Oonk Yes, Palio nothus

George Brown Nice! Where did you find this Becky?

David Kipling Eats ascidians I believe ...

Becky Hitchin Cor. Yes, fairly shallow, maybe 6-7m, in a kelp-y, scrubby area

Brendan Oonk As far as I know, it eats a bryozoan called Bowerbankia

David Kipling Ah, maybe I'm thinking of Goniodoris castenea ...

Becky Hitchin Will now look for Bowerbankia :)

Brendan Oonk Goniodoris does eat ascidians. Becky: Trouble with looking for Bowerbankia is that it is so small, that you won't see it... ;)

George Brown Moray Firth Becky?

David Fenwick Snr Does anyone know why WoRMS are listing both Anemonia sulcata (Pennant, 1777) and Anemonia viridis (Forskål, 1775) as accepted?

Allen Collins Good question. Both are listed as valid in the Hexacorallia database: http://hercules.kgs.ku.edu/Hexacoral/Anemone2/genus_search_valid.cfm?genus=Anemonia

Allen Collins But the synonymy for A. viridis seems to include A. sulcata in the same source. Daphne Fautin would answer your question.

David Fenwick Snr EOL and HABITAS would seem to confirm that both species are now independant of each other. I know it's reported on Marlin, Howson & Picton (1997), that the brown form might be a distinct species, but I cannot find any confirmation of this or any information confirming the separation and how they must now be separated from each other.

Marco Faasse The brown variety has been called Anemonia rustica, but I don't know if it has been formally described. Williams (1992) Pedal disc detachment (...) colour varieties. - Scientia Marina 56(4): 337-346 refers to German publications which I don't have. WoRMS considers A. rustica a nomen dubium.

David Fenwick Snr Have just found that there are records for both species on the UK NBN database so it appears both are accepted from the UK. One piece I have found states - ''There is some evidence that in the Mediterranean and in the Atlantic outside the British area, the brown form of Anemonia may be a distinct species (e.g. Bulnheim & Sauer, 1984; Williams, 1992) but this is yet to be confirmed''. So this would potentially exclude records of A. sulcata from the UK. VERY PUZZLING.

David Fenwick Snr If what I gather is correct, an image I have taken at the National Marine Aquarium possibly shows A. sulcata centre; and A. viridis to the right of it. http://www.aphotomarine.com/images/sea_anemones/snakelock_anemone_anemonia_viridis_17-04-09.jpg

David Fenwick Snr All this has come about on looking at Victorian common names for UK species, Anemonia sulcata appears in a text and is reffered to as the Opelet.

Bernard Picton I kept both those names as someone told me they had evidence that there were two species, but I don't think anything definitive has been published. The Hexacorallia database and WoRMS (a derivative) list several names as valid which I think are synonyms. Actinothoe anguicoma and Sagartiogeton undatus are synonyms according to Manuel's Linn. Soc. Synopsis.

David Fenwick Snr Thanks Bernard, what troubles me is that I 'roughly' annually check WoRMS for changes in status. I'm sure that the last time I checked A. sulcatus was included as a synonym as I would have raised the issue before now, quite strange what has happened but of course wouldn't be the first time; until recently Spirorbis were largely unsorted and presented in a similar manner. On Sagartiogeton, Sagartiogeton viduatus was strangly mentioned in the book I was reading over and above any other species. Perhaps it was more common over 100 years ago or maybe it has been grossly overlooked in the UK; reported in the book as only opening at night. Ref: Edward Step; By the Deep Sea. A Popular Introduction to the Wild Life of the British Shores. 1896. Quite a good rockpooling read. Book freely available online as a PDF file.

Bernard Picton I think there was quite a bit of confusion over the Sagartiogeton species. S. viduatus is quite common in Zostera beds in Norway, it is quite small. I've never seen it in the UK or Ireland. http://unreality.se/pictures/2752

David Fenwick Snr I think if it was around here on eelgrass I'd have seen it. Found some other pics from Norway last night.

Marco Faasse If there really are two or more European Anemonia species it seems possible that the holotype of A. sulcata belongs to one of them and the holotype of A. viridis to another. In that situation it would be unwise to synonymise the two before being sure how many, and which, Anemone (not anemone) species we have.

David Fenwick Snr So nomen limbus, a reservation? Agree unwise to synonymise. Hopefully the situation will get sorted.

David Fenwick Snr Daphne Fautin has very kindly contributed via Wim at WoRMS - Opinions have been divided on whether these are separate species; some opinions are that they are separate subspecies. The source of the WoRMS information provides full information about who has considered them separate and who has considered them synonyms. Until there is a single source that demonstrates they are a single species, and accounts for the differences in opinion, they will remain as separate lists in Hexacorallians of the World.

Bernard Picton That makes good sense. I always cite Palio nothus and Palio dubia. These were (wrongly) synonymised for a period so there are a lot of records which cannot now be attributed to the correct species.